R2I Club Member Hangout

@wd40, let's cut to the chase, would you have taken up Singapore citizenship if it were available as easily as US/EU citizenship?

Western passport allows visa free travel. It's a big plus. Though most countries now are very liberal in giving visas and are of longer duration, so it's not a problem but a hassle.

Western countries also offer free healthcare after 65, so if you fall on hard times then there is atleast some respite. If you are kicked by your kids then govt in western countries will provide some support. In short, it's helpful to be in western countries if you are poor.

But at the same time, if you are expecting big inheritance then it's better to stay away from western citizenships. Either most already tax you or will in very near future. All these countries are running dry and trying to find every avenue to tax the hell out of middle/upper middle class.

If you are not avid traveler or do not care about searching for employment or support in your older age, then western passport is meaningless.

Returning_Indian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:50 am Western passport allows visa free travel. It's a big plus. Though most countries now are very liberal in giving visas and are of longer duration, so it's not a problem but a hassle.

Western countries also offer free healthcare after 65, so if you fall on hard times then there is atleast some respite. If you are kicked by your kids then govt in western countries will provide some support. In short, it's helpful to be in western countries if you are poor.

But at the same time, if you are expecting big inheritance then it's better to stay away from western citizenships. Either most already tax you or will in very near future. All these countries are running dry and trying to find every avenue to tax the hell out of middle/upper middle class.

If you are not avid traveler or do not care about searching for employment or support in your older age, then western passport is meaningless.

I envy the desis who worked in the US and are now reaching 62. Based on calculators, they are getting $30,000 USD min per person as social security! This is a wonderful pension especially if living in India. I realize that this may not last when I reach 62, but if it does, it would be great. Gives me even more motivation to stay healthy and fit for as long as possible.

Social security I think you can withdraw without owning the passport and still live in India.

SAPPORO wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:11 am @wd40, let's cut to the chase, would you have taken up Singapore citizenship if it were available as easily as US/EU citizenship?

As you know Sir, I was always on this path of FIRE and the idea to use geo arbitrage of earning in a high income country and retiring early in a low cost country. So Singapore citizenship is of no use to me. I have only 1 daughter, there is no incentive for me to take SG citizenship for her and then send her away when I want to retire and relax in India.

I like to keep things clean. I want to have the passport of the country where I plan to eventually live and also I want to keep all my assets domiciled in the country of citizenship.

I really wonder, how easily Indians renounce their citizenship when they have no plans to stay in the country of acquired citizenship. What if in the future, India makes rules difficult for OCIs? It would be like screwing up the next generation, by giving them a passport of a country, which they have no idea about.

The context of my comments is on the basis that this is an R2I forum; i.e about desis who want to move back to India. I know that is a minority of people and majority of people have no such plans to move back to India. So their case is different.

r2somewhere wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:53 amI envy the desis who worked in the US and are now reaching 62. Based on calculators, they are getting $30,000 USD min per person as social security! This is a wonderful pension especially if living in India. I realize that this may not last when I reach 62, but if it does, it would be great. Gives me even more motivation to stay healthy and fit for as long as possible.

Remember SS is not free money or pension. We have contributed 6.5% and another 6.5% by employer (total 13%) for 30+ years. If we had that money in SP500 Index we would get much more without any fear of SS going bankrupt. Unless one lives beyond 85+, it is just getting back the money we gave to the SS administration.

Yes the SS payment will be enough to live comfortably in India hoping by that time one would have a paid off housing there.

wd40 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 6:03 am

I really wonder, how easily Indians renounce their citizenship when they have no plans to stay in the country of acquired citizenship. What if in the future, India makes rules difficult for OCIs? It would be like screwing up the next generation, by giving them a passport of a country, which they have no idea about.

You have a point here. But you should see how much risk NRIs take, especially in recent years. Most take huge loans to go do MS in a country with a lottery system for work visa. Then they buy homes, send kids to school and basically build a life in a place where a mere job loss can lead to deportation of the whole family.

Compared to this, living under OCI is lower risk. Mostly because India is the native land and the govt is not as hard and fast on rules like western govts. There is always the belief that you can bribe the right person and disobey the rules. Or find some loophole.

r2somewhere wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:15 amCompared to this, living under OCI is lower risk. Mostly because India is the native land and the govt is not as hard and fast on rules like western govts. There is always the belief that you can bribe the right person and disobey the rules. Or find some loophole.

Issue is only with kid's college education as they will be treated as NRI and not eligible for local quotas. If you have enough $$ then you can get a NRI or management seat. IITs and other top rated colleges have some seats for OCI. Check current rules as they keep changing it.

Other than college education there is no difference living as OCI in India. Nowhere you have to produce PP or OCI for identification. Get an aadhar card and DL, that will let you live life as a local.

wd40 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 6:03 am

SAPPORO wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:11 am @wd40, let's cut to the chase, would you have taken up Singapore citizenship if it were available as easily as US/EU citizenship?

As you know Sir, I was always on this path of FIRE and the idea to use geo arbitrage of earning in a high income country and retiring early in a low cost country. So Singapore citizenship is of no use to me. I have only 1 daughter, there is no incentive for me to take SG citizenship for her and then send her away when I want to retire and relax in India.

I like to keep things clean. I want to have the passport of the country where I plan to eventually live and also I want to keep all my assets domiciled in the country of citizenship.

I really wonder, how easily Indians renounce their citizenship when they have no plans to stay in the country of acquired citizenship. What if in the future, India makes rules difficult for OCIs? It would be like screwing up the next generation, by giving them a passport of a country, which they have no idea about.

The context of my comments is on the basis that this is an R2I forum; i.e about desis who want to move back to India. I know that is a minority of people and majority of people have no such plans to move back to India. So their case is different.

I think i can feel it that you missed an opportunity to be in US, and can also gather the SS payments. Looking at cost of living in US and cost of health care, 2500$ may not help much. Only if one moves to india then it may be helpful. People like me who moved to india during prime years 15+ years may not get more than 1000$ etc.

BTW, still i feel it is early years for you in india (may be you are their less than 2 years). Lot can change in the next 5-10 years and you may be back in singapore or other country

Srini234 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:49 pm
I think i can feel it that you missed an opportunity to be in US, and can also gather the SS payments. Looking at cost of living in US and cost of health care, 2500$ may not help much. Only if one moves to india then it may be helpful. People like me who moved to india during prime years 15+ years may not get more than 1000$ etc.

BTW, still i feel it is early years for you in india (may be you are their less than 2 years). Lot can change in the next 5-10 years and you may be back in singapore or other country

To provide some more context; I am a pretty mediocre person when it comes to IQ/looks/skills/ambition. I passed Karnataka CET in 1997 with 9000 ranking and got into a godforsken tier 3 engg college ECE and I was so poor in maths and science and I had absolutely no aptitude. I mugged up and scored well. Then I passed out in dotcom bust and I was actually happy, because I had no aptitude to get into IT and I was using the dotcom bust as the excuse that I didnt find an IT job, lol. I worked in call centre and BPO in Bangalore, for next 5 years and was absolutely happy with my life. It was only after 5 years that I did SQL course and faked my experience and got into IT. After getting into IT, I quickly realized, I was an imposter and I could somehow managed to google and form sql queries but wont go far in coding. Then microsoft introduced MSBI which was mostly UI based drag and drop type ETL, analytics, this was around 2005 with SQL server 2005. There was also a general economic and IT boom around this time and Business Intelligence specifically. I quickly latched on to this boom quite easily and then luckily this onsite to Singapore happened in 2009. Ever since, I havent learnt any new IT skill. I still dont know any programming language or OOPs concepts, neither did I upskill in cloud or microservices or anything like that. Still my core IT skill is SQL, lol.

It is just a miracle I have survived and I am able to interact with you fine people who are accomplished NRIs. I am like that hero from Titanic movie who never belonged to Titatic, but somehow got there, lol.

So coming back to your point about "You maybe back in Singapore or other country", lol, my answer to this is beggars cannot be choosers. If I lose my current job, forget Singapore or any other country, I wont find a job anywhere even in India. A lot of much much much more accomplished IT professionals of my age, have been laid off and they are finding it difficult to find a job. I am nowhere close to them in comparison.

Again, just like during the dotcom bust how I used that as an excuse, I am going to use the current job market as being brutal for experienced senior people to find a job, lol.

But truth is I never belonged to IT nor to be in any accomplished career. I just faked it till I made it and now that I have made it, I dont see any reason to continue to fake it.