Post retirement life in India

[Returning_Indian]

As I have always insisted, the biggest (only?) bang for the buck one gets for retiring in India is IF one rents a place instead of buying since RE prices have been inflated by NRIs/speculators that may never live there and have a lot of vacant units.

Why would you want to live in a rental when you have money? How is that making any sense? Do you not like to own your place, customize it as per your standard, decorate it etc etc. that's the whole point of making money. Not to mention having to deal with landlord and their nuances. I can understand if one doesn't have money then they dont have a choice. But why are you looking for bang on the buck when it comes to your comfort and convenience and if this is something you will do on regular basis.

Having lived in both rental and my own in India, I will never choose to live on rental. Infact, I didn't even give my own property on rent while I was in UK. I want to own my own place, live in it whenever I come back, keep things my way. In addition, property appreciates minimum by 10-15% and you save 4-5% on rent. So you are looking at 15-20% appreciation on capital. But regardless of capital appreciation, this is something I just want do not want to compromise on.

Moreover, it's essential for NRIs to have a house in India so they can have roots here and their kids can somewhat be connected. Otherwise for them India is just as exotic as for any American. But I guess it all depends on how one views India and how strong their own preferences are to live here. I once met a professor who visited India only 3 times after he left at young age and eventually retired in US. His kids had never seen India. Ofcourse for such people it doesn't make any sense. I suppose it's all about personal choice.

[wd40]

Why would you want to live in a rental when you have money? How is that making any sense? Do you not like to open your own place, customize it as per your standard, decorate it etc etc. that's the whole point of making money. Not to mention having to deal with landlord and their nuances. I can understand if one doesn't have money then they dont have a choice.

Having lived in both rental and my own in India, I will never choose to live on rental. Infact, I didn't even give my own property on rent while I was in UK. I want to own my own place, live in it whenever I come back, keep things my way. In addition, property appreciates minimum by 10-15% and you save 4-5% on rent. So you are looking at 15-20% appreciation on capital. But regardless of capital appreciation, this is something I just want do not want to compromise on.

I am going to live in my dad's house, the upper floor has been given out for rent for 16k, which we will go and occupy. It is the notional cost of staying. My dad wont take rent from me and since it is my dad's house, there is no hassle.

But I agree with you, it is a pain to rent in India and it is also a pain to buy a property in India and then not live in it. But then I know people who buy multiple flats in India and then rent them out, I never understood the logic.

In my opinion, renting does make sense, if you need is very short term, like less than 5-7 years. There is a risk of landlord kicking you out, but once you accept that risk and account for it, the flexibility to be able to move around is really worth it.

[Returning_Indian]

Not sure about the Alphas and Betas but for my lifestyle, US is much cheaper than India. I could get a Taco Bell build your own cravings box for $5.99 or a Chipotle bowl for $10 and my wife and I can share it in a decent air-conditioned restaurant without the fear of dogs and cats roaming around us and the fear of any food poisoning. In fact, there is a little eatery that opened around the corner with decent prices like 100 INR for a Masala Dosa but my DW refused to go there since the eating area is pretty much open for stray dogs! I can fly for $50 - $100 roundtrip as well to most of the places I need to in the US whereas I had to pay $200 RT for my recent trip to Rajasthan and I booked 3 months in advance and there was no free meal as it used to be in the past. Don't even get me started about the disproportionate real estate prices!

You cannot compare India and US. Same car will be available at half the price in US than in India. Taxes and duties are too high as it's seen as product of luxury. Same for plane travel, newly developed airports will have to make money from somewhere and govt wants it's cuts. If you look at the breakdown of pricing of plane tickets, you will see disproportionate fees and taxes than west. Anything more than essentials attracts very high taxes. You have to pay 18% GST on hospital treatments, health insurance etc etc.

That's the price you pay for living in a developing country. US to lot of extent has already gone through the process 50yrs back and in addition it is a resource rich country. Europe has plundered the world and built it's wealth by killing millions around the world. They have built their infra by blood of Africans and Asians. In India it's being done by taxing it's upper class.

Additionally, there is corruption. Govt has to extract money to pay for free services for poor, develop country as well as build luxury housing for politicians and bureaucrats.

Tampa cannot be compared to Bangalore. Tampa is like a village except that villages in India lack sufficient infrastructure and it will take time to reach there.

[Returning_Indian]

Why would you want to live in a rental when you have money? How is that making any sense? Do you not like to open your own place, customize it as per your standard, decorate it etc etc. that's the whole point of making money. Not to mention having to deal with landlord and their nuances. I can understand if one doesn't have money then they dont have a choice.

Having lived in both rental and my own in India, I will never choose to live on rental. Infact, I didn't even give my own property on rent while I was in UK. I want to own my own place, live in it whenever I come back, keep things my way. In addition, property appreciates minimum by 10-15% and you save 4-5% on rent. So you are looking at 15-20% appreciation on capital. But regardless of capital appreciation, this is something I just want do not want to compromise on.

I am going to live in my dad's house, the upper floor has been given out for rent for 16k, which we will go and occupy. It is the notional cost of staying. My dad wont take rent from me and since it is my dad's house, there is no hassle.

But I agree with you, it is a pain to rent in India and it is also a pain to buy a property in India and then not live in it. But then I know people who buy multiple flats in India and then rent them out, I never understood the logic.

In my opinion, renting does make sense, if you need is very short term, like less than 5-7 years. There is a risk of landlord kicking you out, but once you accept that risk and account for it, the flexibility to be able to move around is really worth it.

if you are going to retire in India and live for 4-6months out of the year, do you really want to be at mercy of landlord? You will build connections within your society/neighbourhood etc and then you have to pack your bags and find it somewhere else and repeat the process. How long can one live like banjara in life? I don't like that life anymore and want permanancy.

Not to mention you cannot do any improvements in rental. Your furniture work/decoration etc will not be as per your living standards in the US. Moreover, one should choose to live where fewer renters live anyways. The society where owners live are maintained much better and you see the same faces and build some relationships over time. NRIs should look to create their bubble when living in India. Or else they will not last long. Especially their families. Their kids will hate India and never want to visit. India should not be a third world destination for families when it can be similar to what they are used to in west.

[SAPPORO]

Here are Numbeo's figures of Tampa v/s Bangalore: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... ampa%2C+FL

Local Purchasing Power in Tampa, FL is 18.8% higher than in Bangalore, so it is not such a big difference really.

Now compare Bangalore with Birmingham, https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... Birmingham

Local Purchasing Power in Birmingham is 2.3% lower than in Bangalore, this is what I expect for most places in the world when compared with Bangalore.

Thanks for doing the work for me Isn't it scary that Tampa has 20% more purchasing power than Bangalore? I am pretty sure it wasn't like this even 3-4 years ago. The geographical arbitrage is quickly disappearing into thin air." Indian dream" maybe slipping away for retirees - especially NRIs.
If one is actively employed in India with income going up with crazy inflation, then they are fine. I see India as the next Guyana with higher COL than the US - there it's the oil boom and in India I guess it's mainly the offshoring boom and FDIs.

PS: In a popular Tamil movie, Kamal Haasan's reply to "do you think there is no God?" was "I never said there is no God, I only wish there was one"! Same goes for my feelings about India.

[SAPPORO]

As I have always insisted, the biggest (only?) bang for the buck one gets for retiring in India is IF one rents a place instead of buying since RE prices have been inflated by NRIs/speculators that may never live there and have a lot of vacant units.

Why would you want to live in a rental when you have money? How is that making any sense? Do you not like to own your place, customize it as per your standard, decorate it etc etc. that's the whole point of making money. Not to mention having to deal with landlord and their nuances. I can understand if one doesn't have money then they dont have a choice. But why are you looking for bang on the buck when it comes to your comfort and convenience and if this is something you will do on regular basis.

Having lived in both rental and my own in India, I will never choose to live on rental. Infact, I didn't even give my own property on rent while I was in UK. I want to own my own place, live in it whenever I come back, keep things my way. In addition, property appreciates minimum by 10-15% and you save 4-5% on rent. So you are looking at 15-20% appreciation on capital. But regardless of capital appreciation, this is something I just want do not want to compromise on.

Moreover, it's essential for NRIs to have a house in India so they can have roots here and their kids can somewhat be connected. Otherwise for them India is just as exotic as for any American. But I guess it all depends on how one views India and how strong their own preferences are to live here. I once met a professor who visited India only 3 times after he left at young age and eventually retired in US. His kids had never seen India. Ofcourse for such people it doesn't make any sense. I suppose it's all about personal choice.

15% -20% home price appreciation and 5% on rent are way off - if that's the case, stock markets in India would be crashing already! It may be a local temporary phenomenon, and I doubt it's national. It's usually only a little better than inflation. I sold a villa in Bangalore that 'appreciated' 3.5 times in 7 years on paper but even according to GOI inflation index, I made very little in actual terms. But unfortunately, US does not index the purchase price and I ended up paying all of that 'appreciation' as capital gains taxes in the US. I was getting hardly 20-25K in rent and had to whitewash it evey time someone new moved in.

We are not talking about those that R2Ied with their families or resident Indians. The topic of this thread is about retirement in India. US retirees hoping for their kids to come, visit and stay with them is a total pipedream and no point in planning for it. Even the retirees usually keep a base in the US since they are themselves not so sure (OS2 is an exception). It also means that they need to keep the base in the US. The bigger issue for retirees is what could/would their children do with the RE once they pass. Given these issues and the fact that the rents are a steal in India, I would suggest leasing a place for long term. I have been here 3 weeks and have not seen a single neighbor and the social connections are not a factor at all in most cases. For retirees who don't care about it, they can even rent AirBnb serviced apartments with a different look and feel and live even in a different city every time they visit to experience India.

[SAPPORO]

Not sure about the Alphas and Betas but for my lifestyle, US is much cheaper than India. I could get a Taco Bell build your own cravings box for $5.99 or a Chipotle bowl for $10 and my wife and I can share it in a decent air-conditioned restaurant without the fear of dogs and cats roaming around us and the fear of any food poisoning. In fact, there is a little eatery that opened around the corner with decent prices like 100 INR for a Masala Dosa but my DW refused to go there since the eating area is pretty much open for stray dogs! I can fly for $50 - $100 roundtrip as well to most of the places I need to in the US whereas I had to pay $200 RT for my recent trip to Rajasthan and I booked 3 months in advance and there was no free meal as it used to be in the past. Don't even get me started about the disproportionate real estate prices!

You cannot compare India and US. Same car will be available at half the price in US than in India. Taxes and duties are too high as it's seen as product of luxury. Same for plane travel, newly developed airports will have to make money from somewhere and govt wants it's cuts. If you look at the breakdown of pricing of plane tickets, you will see disproportionate fees and taxes than west. Anything more than essentials attracts very high taxes. You have to pay 18% GST on hospital treatments, health insurance etc etc.

That's the price you pay for living in a developing country. US to lot of extent has already gone through the process 50yrs back and in addition it is a resource rich country. Europe has plundered the world and built it's wealth by killing millions around the world. They have built their infra by blood of Africans and Asians. In India it's being done by taxing it's upper class.

Additionally, there is corruption. Govt has to extract money to pay for free services for poor, develop country as well as build luxury housing for politicians and bureaucrats.

Tampa cannot be compared to Bangalore. Tampa is like a village except that villages in India lack sufficient infrastructure and it will take time to reach there.

LOL! Tampa is not a village and is a like-kind comparison to Bangalore. It has its old established parts where the downtown is just like Bangalore and ever-expanding suburbs with massive construction. There are 7K houses being built just in a three-mile radius from my home. It has 2 international airports and multiple high rises and some of those condos costs a few million dollars. It also boasts of franchise teams in multiple sports and even hosted super bowl a couple of times. I am not sure what constitutes a city! If the 24/7 honking and traffic are indicators, I think only NYC would match that with even any tier 3 town in India.

[wd40]

Here are Numbeo's figures of Tampa v/s Bangalore: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... ampa%2C+FL

Local Purchasing Power in Tampa, FL is 18.8% higher than in Bangalore, so it is not such a big difference really.

Now compare Bangalore with Birmingham, https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... Birmingham

Local Purchasing Power in Birmingham is 2.3% lower than in Bangalore, this is what I expect for most places in the world when compared with Bangalore.

Thanks for doing the work for me Isn't it scary that Tampa has 20% more purchasing power than Bangalore? I am pretty sure it wasn't like this even 3-4 years ago. The geographical arbitrage is quickly disappearing into thin air." Indian dream" maybe slipping away for retirees - especially NRIs.
If one is actively employed in India with income going up with crazy inflation, then they are fine. I see India as the next Guyana with higher COL than the US - there it's the oil boom and in India I guess it's mainly the offshoring boom and FDIs.

PS: In a popular Tamil movie, Kamal Haasan's reply to "do you think there is no God?" was "I never said there is no God, I only wish there was one"! Same goes for my feelings about India.

If you look at salary in Tampa it is 4 times more than Bangalore and cost of living is also 4 times more than Bangalore, thats why purchasing power is only 18% more. 18% is nothing when you compare the denominator which is 400%.

There is massive geo arbitrage with 4X salary in Tampa and 1/4th the expenses in Bangalore.

Regarding your prediction of India turning to Guyana, well, it isn't as bad as some of the prior dire predictions we had in this forum when there was demonetization and before that India was part of fragile 5 and people were predicting USDINR to hit 100 like 5 years ago. Eventually sure it will hit 100, due to the yield differentials, that is normal.

Anyways our lives are short, we must live where our heart is, even if India turns to Guyana or Srilanka, it doesn't matter

[mcr]

I see India as the next Guyana with higher COL than the US

I think it is a bit exaggerated. If the COL in India becomes higher than the US most people in India will die of starvation! The COL, the prices of basic necessities are much lower here compared to US. My elderly parents live in our ancestral home in a Tier 2 city and their monthly expense is barely 20K. Of course they will have occasional medical expenses and they are covered in my insurance. After the basic essentials, for everything else there is a wide spectrum of choices here depending on what you want. For example, there are many upscale restaurants in Bangalore where a meal costs min 1K per person, at the same time there are a ton of very decent restaurants where a decent non-veg meal can be had for less than 500 INR. I am not talking about hotels with stray dogs running around inside, these are well maintained, clean, air conditioned places with uniformed waiters. I can have a very nice wholesome 'veg thali' for 160 INR in an air-conditioned hotel a couple of hundred meters from my home here in western part of Bangalore.
So except for the crazy real estate prices in places like Bangalore, one can live a very decent life in India for far less than it costs in a US.
But unless you live inside one of those gated community bubbles, you can't escape the dirt, noise, traffic, chaos prevalent everywhere in India.

[SAPPORO]

Here are Numbeo's figures of Tampa v/s Bangalore: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... ampa%2C+FL

Local Purchasing Power in Tampa, FL is 18.8% higher than in Bangalore, so it is not such a big difference really.

Now compare Bangalore with Birmingham, https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... Birmingham

Local Purchasing Power in Birmingham is 2.3% lower than in Bangalore, this is what I expect for most places in the world when compared with Bangalore.

Thanks for doing the work for me Isn't it scary that Tampa has 20% more purchasing power than Bangalore? I am pretty sure it wasn't like this even 3-4 years ago. The geographical arbitrage is quickly disappearing into thin air." Indian dream" maybe slipping away for retirees - especially NRIs.
If one is actively employed in India with income going up with crazy inflation, then they are fine. I see India as the next Guyana with higher COL than the US - there it's the oil boom and in India I guess it's mainly the offshoring boom and FDIs.

PS: In a popular Tamil movie, Kamal Haasan's reply to "do you think there is no God?" was "I never said there is no God, I only wish there was one"! Same goes for my feelings about India.

Anyways our lives are short, we must live where our heart is, even if India turns to Guyana or Srilanka, it doesn't matter

Everyone can live where they want to if they have decided - this is just a discussion for the undecideds. I have decided to live/retire in the US unless and until I am kicked out and the India visits would be infrequent in the future as well. Unfortunately, all notions about India have evaporated on this visit for me.